Burning a Flag?

[firesprink281]

this was posted on byt, it is interesting to see peoples response. you can tell who was listening to the words and who was just watching. post up what you think.

[Czech-it-Out Graphics]

phuck china?

[Opliko]

That's a lot of talking for a short message lol. I guess that's what makes a good show though.

[team3six]

Thats pretty good. How about this since we are about patriotism

[stratcat]

whew, I have problems with this one...

the flag, the flag that symbolizes the United States of America is not as he called it "a piece of cloth" many a man and woman have given the ultimate sacrifice (died) in defense of that piece of cloth!!! and many more have offered up their lives in defense of this flag.

the folding of our flag, is a solemn moment, not a time to run your freakin' mouth!

the flag, is NOT TO BE crunched up and put in fucking tubes to be sat on fire for the entertainment of an audience... or to make a statement!


sorry guys, this just pisses me right off, the flag is a very sacred object to me, I'd rate it right up there with God, and it isn't something to be screwed with, think of what this symbolizes to you!

(I didn't make it through the entire video, I was busy fighting the urge to puke, or use one of my handguns that he mentioned)

my opinions, you don't have to like 'em, but they are mine. As far as I know, the only acceptable time to burn a flag of the United States is when it is torn or tattered, I don't believe this has or ever will change, anyone that wants to burn it, deface it, throw it on the ground or otherwise disgrace it is an enemy of mine!

[team3six]

Dude thought I respect your point on the flag! (as I figured this would be a touchy thread to some people.) The point that your missing is no matter what you do to the flag, it wont break what the true meaning of being a An American. I too am against the burning of the flag! But the fact is it does get burned by those who disrespect the meaning behind it all. I honestly do not believe that Penn and Teller were disrespecting the flag, but rather during a time when we as a nation are fighting with conflicts that we can or cannot contol over liberties or non liberties. Burning the flag to other countries is done because we show our pride in our flag. They know this and therefore show thier hate by burning it. But you can never take away what we are born and bread to believe in. Its instilled in us as a people that that piece of cloth is a symbol of freedom. It is not what holds us and binds us together!

Now before you go off the deep end at me. I am a Marine. I fought for my country, Not for the flag, not for the fact that two nations couldnt see eye to eye, but because I am an American and it is my right. The flags meaning is and always has been the start of it all, but it is not who we are as a country.

Its a symbol of what we are now. And if you let the destruction of a piece of cloth bother you to the point of anger and hate, then they have already won and beaten you.

As the saying goes, "You cant take our freedom!"
I hope you understand and try and see the meaning behind the message.

[stratcat]

nah man, I can't agree... I don't want to start a riot, and I understand the symbolic point that they were making, but! not cool.. use something else, think of another way, whatever... I got their point (cooled down and went and finished the video) but I can't agree with this at all...

as for you being a Marine, I respect that dude... and also thank you for your service, I was a Navy submarine sailor for a long time.

again, I respect your opinion on this and it is duly noted.. but it strikes a nerve with me.

think of the outrage had this been a religious symbol... as a matter of fact, don't think of it, look back to when John Lennon said that the Beatles were more popular than God and think of the feathers he ruffled, this is the same thing, some things are sacred and shouldn't be messed with in any way, in my opinion. By the way, the John Lennon comment didn't bother me as bad as others, but I took that one in context...

kinda get what I'm saying?

[Traxxas_Junkee]

Since they really didn't burn it I guess it's ok to me. If they just used it for an act and didn't really have a message behind it then I guess that would be kinda messed up because you can just use any old peice of cloth. But since they actually had a message that was patriotic I don't see a problem with it.

[stratcat]

Since they really didn't burn it I guess it's ok to me. If they just used it for an act and didn't really have a message behind it then I guess that would be kinda messed up because you can just use any old peice of cloth. But since they actually had a message that was patriotic I don't see a problem with it.

yeah, and on those lines of thought...

if someone holds someone else hostage at gun point and doesn't actually kill them, it should be alright, they was just getting their point across

[firesprink281]

anger is understandable, but you have to watch the whole vid. they dont burn the flag, and the illustrate how in other countries if you look outside the box, you get arrested or worse. if you cant watch the vid, close your eyes and listen. in a time where the rest of the world hates America, it shows that it might not be the people, but there government that makes them think that way.

[Traxxas_Junkee]

yeah, and on those lines of thought...

if someone holds someone else hostage at gun point and doesn't actually kill them, it should be alright, they was just getting their point across

Well I guess it can only apply in certain circumstances. lol.

[team3six]

I agree sprink, That is why I was encouraging stratcat to watch the whole Vid. I didnt want to give it away either since it was all a suggestive point.

And yes again. See in my visits to other countries it isnt nessesarily the other people of that country that have the problem. It is the way they have been taught for years and centuries sometimes. The Arab crap to us is just that! CRAP! but what alot of people dont kinow is that this has been going on since the birth of Crist. Its a holywar that over time was misrepresented.

for example. If here in the USA before we were a country, The great leaders of that time decided that shooting a person for waving was law. then over time that law started to become slightly twisted. and the end result was it was ok to shoot someone for saying hello, waving, or even smiling as a suggestion of saying hi.

The point is, Though we dont agree with it! That is how they have been taught long before we were ever a country. You cant teach a kid all of his life that green is actually blue and dog is cat and then expect the kid to start calling it what it really is.

I had a 14 year old girl pull a loaded riffle on me because she was taught that I was the enemy. The truth is, I was the enemy to her in her eyes.

OK, well again this is getting too touchy, I really should leave this alone since it can get blown out of context. and Honestly I dont want to be pissed off because of someone elses views. We are all here to enjoy RC!

[stratcat]

I'm good guys.. I just won't ever go see the Penn and Teller...

I did actually click on the vid again and scrolled down so I had audio only, it was tolerable and I saw their point, but again, the flag is my problem, use something else.

it also pisses me off (lesser than burning a flag) when the colors are flown or the National Anthem played and people won't remove hats, put hands over their heart or whatever, they sit their playing grab-ass, or drinking their beer.. totally wrong! take a couple of minutes to show that flag some honor, afterall, it provide you with a lot of rights and priveleges... another way that I tend to think of it is I can stand their for a couple of minutes and remember the soldiers and sailors that have died to give me freedom, it's not a big price, you know, a couple of minutes of silence and honor for those who have given the rest of their life to see me free... and they never even knew me...

everyone has things that are sacred and that they hold near and dear to their hearts (wives, mothers, kids, whatever) they are different.. I don't hate these clowns over this, I personally would use another way to prove my point and don't approve of their way, that's all..

[J-Dub]

Everyones views are good. I mostly just listened to the words. I'm proud to be an American, in any case, It is true. you don't realy get to do what you want in other countrys.

[team3six]

THE FLAG NEVER GETS BURNED!
You just prooved how freedom is taken for granted!

[firesprink281]

well said!
i thought they made a great point how we take our rights for granted. i do not condone flag burning. any one that knows me knows i am very patriotic. i fly the flag every day, because it is etched into my skin. if i didn't have health problems in my late teens, i would have been in the marine corp band. if the powers to be think this thread is out of control, i will not be offended it they close it. with all the younger people here, i was hoping they would learn something that they don't teach in school any more, freedom of speech. its not always pc, but it is every Americans rite.

[stratcat]

THE FLAG NEVER GETS BURNED!

it's the symbolism! I know it never go burned..

how about the running your yap during the folding of the flag? did they allow such stuff when you were pulling down colors in the Corp? They didn't allow it in the Navy, you folded the flag with your damned mouth shut!

how about folding it to fit it in the tube? my flag sits in a perfect triangle in a shadow box.. it's not folded again and again so I can cram it into a coffee cup..

I just don't find the whole thing appropriate.. you may have a different opinion, but again, thsi is my opinion, and I believeI'm entitled to it.. (that's the point I'm trying to make)

remember, my first post, other then the flag (not) getting burned I had other issues dude...

and I personally think that honoring the flag when the Anthem is played is something that isn't taught anymore... I bet Ponch (not picking on you man) or Traxxas Junkee wasn't taught that in school.. hell, not many people even know of the proper way to dispose of it when the time comes.

[team3six]

Well it's sad to say that your point may be true! When my father was growing up, you didnt talk back to your parents with any sort of disrespect. Not even as a joke! There was a time to speak your mind and generally followed the tune of (Speak when you are spoken to.) I also recall Women were never allowed to smoke in public, Blacks were not allowed to use the same commen area's as white people, people lived in fear that they might be labled as a Communist if they made any gesture suggesting as such, and once a mass of people once killed themselves in panic over a radio station that an anouncer named Orson Wells broadcasted without notifying the public that it was a fictional story. There was even a time that troops came home to people hating them and calling them baby killers for serving a great country over that flag we now speak of.

Yes this is true and part of being an American is also the chance for growth and learning from our mistakes, even if at the time we thought them to be good values. Part of the freedom that we hold so dear allows freedom of speech no matter what the point, gesture, or act is.

You are definately allowed to have a choice, and you are definately allowed your own voice. That is a right you have that as an American.

but, No matter how bad you think it is that people only place patriotic flags and ribbons on thier cars or homes during times of absolute destitude, Or that the only time a nation needs to pull together is when millions of lives are lost over an act of brutality or a natural disaster. Or even during one single time of year when we celebrate our independence of a nation and the only part of that celebration involves a case of beer and some fireworks! I am willing to bet that freedom tastes far better than any other country in the world could ever offer no matter how bad it is.
alute:

[thenewguy821]

Penn and Teller have LONG been known for "Pushing the envelope". They often take very sensitive subjects, and push them to the limits. Their resoning in this, is to serve two purposes... To give the closed minded people a logically presented arguement to try to open their toughts, and also, to make people want to watch/listen to their reasoning.

An example... A "fan" of a radio show or TV show, will watch or listen at their convenience, where someone who strongly disagrees with them, will more often watch or listen to the entire program, looking for a reason to complain.

The way they prove their point in this video is VERY controversial, but it proves the point, that the constitutional right to free speech doesn't protect us from "Safe" opinions, it protects peoples rights to discuss controversial issues, without penalty.


What scares me, is that in these current times, a lot of the people that would be offended by the thought of our freedoms being stripped from us, are the same people who want to push into office, politicians who's main objective, is to take our freedoms away.

[Ponch]

and I personally think that honoring the flag when the Anthem is played is something that isn't taught anymore... I bet Ponch (not picking on you man) or Traxxas Junkee wasn't taught that in school.. hell, not many people even know of the proper way to dispose of it when the time comes.

Not taught in school, correct, but learned through scouting and family.

[mikeh]

I am easily offended - I AM A PATRIOT!

[Krosenqu]

Not taught in school, correct, but learned through scouting and family.

Bingo. Put your kids though scouting! I don't even have kids of my own and I can already say I would put mine though scouts. You learn values and concepts you would never learn in the public school system. I say this as an eagle scout!

[Traxxas_Junkee]

Yeah, we don't learn anything like that in school now a days. Whenever the Anthem is played I always put my hand over my heart and remove my hat. It bugs me when people talk through it and are just plain rude. I consider my self to be pretty patriotic. Having two grandparents and an uncle that fought in the wars I know what the price of freedom is.

I just felt that they were making a good point in their show/example and they actual flag was not harmed. I don't really see a problem with that. I guess I could understand if someone would with the whole symbolism deal but I just don't see it.

[stratcat]

maybe it was more of a lack of respect in my opinion that ticked me off...

you just don't talk when someone is saying grace, the Preacher is preachin, and anytime the colors are being paraded or folded... just my opinion I guess, it's rude and disrespectful.

then I got thinking about it, Penn and Teller are just (big string of obscenities omitted here) idiots! I saw them on TV one (the short hobbit looking one) shot the other (the magilla gorilla looking one) with a .357, magic or not, warnings or not, you just DON'T DO THAT!!! sooner or later, another idiot is going to come along and have to try it because they saw these idiots do it.. which is a whole other rant, but we'll leave that alone I guess I really should have rembered that, considered the source and closed the damned thread in the first place

besides that the first post said he wanted to see responses, I gave him one

[thenewguy821]

Strat, you say that it is wrong to talk during a flag folding ceremony, yet many military will recite the meaning of each fold AS the flag is being folded. [video=youtube]"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD2HM9SjBvY"]Flag Cermony[/video]I know this is a far stretch from Penn and Teller talking about symbolism, but it is not completely uncommon for words to be said during the ceremony.

Also, the "Bullet trick" has been around for decades, possibly 100 years or more. Penn and Teller's version of the "Trick" is just a modern spin on the same old trick. Just as the old "Sawing a woman in half" has MANY modern versions.